The Hall of Actors

The Saxcademy decided, in these uncertain times (as all coronavirus era blogposts must be qualified), to select a Hall of Fame for Actors. This is an imperfect science to put it lightly. Literally millions of individuals have been actors in films and distinguishing them is nearly 100% subjective. However, listing and ranking things is one of the more satisfying processes available to some bored, locked-in, and in one case unemployed people - so we set out to do it.

The initial phase was a compilation of 300 names across 10 decades from the 1920s to today with an additional mark for "active" Actors in an 11th column. Then each member of the Saxcademy selected 15 names from the following eras; the 20s-40s: The Early Era, the 50s-70s: The Golden Era, the 80s-90s: The Expansion Era, and the 2000s-now: The Modern Era. As actors career's span several decades in most cases, they were eligible to be added to any list during which they were active. Then each actors total inclusions were summed and the aggregate gave us a 75-man HOF of actors who appeared on 2 or more lists, and an additional 53-man honorable mention list and single-vote getters.

First, the honorable mentions in Alphabetical order by first name:

Alan Arkin, Benedict Cumberbatch, Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, Bruce Lee, Burt Reynolds, Charles Bronson, Christopher Lee, Colin Farrell, Derek Jacobi, Ed Harris, Errol Flynn, Fred Astaire, Gene Hackman, Geoffrey Rush, Groucho Marx, Harvey Keitel, Heath Ledger, Hugh Jackman, Idris Elba, James Garner, Jeff Bridges, Jim Carrey, John Cleese, John Hurt, John Huston, Jude Law, Kevin Costner, Kevin Kline, Kurt Russell, Laurence Fishburne, Leonard Nimoy, Lee Van Cleef, Mark Ruffalo, Matthew McConaughey, Oliver Hardy, Oscar Isaac, Paul Newman, Peter Lorre, Ralph Fiennes, Richard Dreyfuss, Robert Downey Jr, Robert Duvall, Robert Mitchum, Rossano Brazzi, Ryan Gosling, Sam Elloitt, Sidney Poitier, Sylvester Stallone, Tim Curry, Tony Curtis, Tyrone Power, William Shatner, Yul Brynner

Presenting the Saxcademy Hall of Actors

Tier 1, appearing on 2 lists, or the "Superstars"

Alan Ladd - Shane, The McConnell Story, Red Mountain, The Gun for Hire, The Blue Dahlia

Alec Guinness - Star Wars, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Kind Hearts and Coronets, The Horse's Mouth, Kafka, Cromwell, Doctor Zhivago; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations

Basil Rathbone - The Adventures of Robin Hood, Romeo and Juliet, The Court Jester, We're No Angels, The Mask of Zorro; 2 Academy Award nominations

Ben Kingsley - Gandhi, Schindler's List, Ender's Game, Stonehearst Asylum, Tuck Everlasting; 1 Academy Award, 4 nominations

Bradley Cooper - A Star Is Born, Silver Linings Playbook, American Sniper, American Hustle; 8 Academy Award nominations

Bruce Willis - Die Hard, Pulp Fiction, The Sixth Sense, Looper, Hart's War, Armageddon

Christopher Walken - Catch Me If You Can, The Deer Hunter, Pulp Fiction, Seven Psycopaths, Man on

Fire, True Romance, King of New York; 1 Academy Award, 2 nominations

Dustin Hoffman - Tootsie, Rain Man, Hook, Finding Neverland, All the President's Men, Kramer vs. Kramer, Runaway Jury; 2 Academy Awards, 7 nominations

Ian McKellan - The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Gods and Monsters, X-Men, The Da Vinci Code, Last Action Hero; 2 Academy Award nominations

James Earl Jones - Empire Strikes Back, The Lion King, Hunt for Red October, The Great White Hope, Field of Dreams, The Sandlot; 1 Academy Award nomination

Jeff Daniels - The Squid and the Whale, Dumb and Dumber, Gettysburg, Steve Jobs, Good Night and Good Luck.

Jeff Goldblum - Jurassic Park, The Fly, Independence Day, Thor: Ragnarok, Holy Man; 1 Academy Award nomination

John Malkovich - In the Line of Fire; Being John Malkovich; RED, Burn After Reading, Johnny English; 2 Academy Award nominations

Keanu Reeves - The Matrix, Speed, John Wick, Point Break, Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure

Kenneth Branagh - Henry V, Hamlet, Murder on the Orient Express, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Dunkirk; 5 Academy Award nominations

Orson Welles - Citizen Kane, Touch of Evil, The Lady from Shanghai, The Trial; 1 Academy Award. 3 nominations

Patrick Stewart - Star Trek: First Contact, X-Men, Dune, Robin Hood: Men in Tights

Peter Ustinov - Spartacus, Logan's Run, We're No Angels, Death on the Nile, Robin Hood, Luther; 2 Academy Awards, 4 nominations

Spencer Tracy - Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, Judgment at Nuremberg, It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World, Cass Timberlane, Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, Captain Courageous; 2 Academy Awards, 9 nominations

Willem Dafoe - Spider-man, The Lighthouse, At Eternity's Gate, Paris, je t'aime, The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou, The Grand Budapest Hotel; 4 Academy Award nominations

William Holden - Stalag 17, Network, The Towering Inferno, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Force of Arms; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations

Tier 2, appearing on 3 lists, "The Greats"

Adam Driver - Star Wars: The Force Awakens; Marriage Story; Paterson; The Report; Logan Lucky; BlacKkKlansman; 2 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Kylo Ren

Al Pacino - The Godfather, Serpico, Dick Tracy, Scent of a Woman, The Irishman, Carlito's Way, Scarface, Dog Day Afternoon; 1 Academy Award, 9 nominations - Best Character: Michael Corelone

Alan Rickman - Die Hard; Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince; Galaxy Quest; Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves; Love Actually; Best Character: Hans Gruber

Bill Murray - What About Bob?; Ghostbusters; Lost In Translation; Groundhog Day; Moonrise Kingdom; The Man Who Knew Too Little; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Peter Venkman

Boris Karloff - Bride of Frankenstein; How the Grinch Stole Christmas; Black Friday; The Black Cat; Best Character: The Monster

Clark Gable - Gone with the Wind; Mutiny on the Bounty; It Happened One Night; Red Dust; North Star; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations - Best Character: Rhett Butler

David Niven - The Pink Panther; Murder by Death; Separate Tables; Around the World in 80 Days; Three Blind Mice; 1 Academy Award - Best Character: Dick Charleston

Gary Oldman - Darkest Hour; Bram Stoker's Dracula; Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy; Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban; The Dark Knight; True Romance; Air Force One; The Fifth Element; 1 Academy Award, 2 nominations - Best Character: Sirius Black

Gene Kelly - Singin' in the Rain; On the Town; An American in Paris; Xanadu; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Don Lockwood

Henry Fonda - 12 Angry Men; The Battle of the Bulge; The Rounders; Madigan; Once Upon a Time in the West; On Golden Pond; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations - Best Character: Juror #8

Jack Nicholson - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Chinatown; The Departed; As Good as It Gets; The Shining; Batman; Terms of Endearment; The Postman Always Rings Twice; 3 Academy Awards, 12 nominations - Best Character: RP McMurphy

Jake Gyllenhaal - Nightcrawler; Prisoners; Donnie Darko; Brokeback Mountain; Southpaw; Zodiac; October Sky; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Louis Bloom

James Coburn - The Great Escape; Affliction, The Magnificent Seven; Duck, You Sucker; Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid; Charade; 1 Academy Award - Best Character: Britt

Johnny Depp - Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl; Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street; Edward Scissorhands; Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them; Public Enemies; Finding Neverland; Sleepy Hollow; Platoon; 3 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Jack Sparrow

Liam Neeson - Taken; The Grey; Schindler's List; Silence; Kinsey; Star Wars: The Phantom Menace; Gangs of New York; The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Bryan Mills

Marlon Brando - The Godfather; On the Waterfront; Apocalypse Now; Julius Caesar; A Streetcar Named Desire; Last Tango in Paris; 2 Academy Awards, 8 nominations - Best Character: Vito Corleone

Matt Damon - The Departed; Good Will Hunting; The Bourne Identity; The Martian; Ocean's Eleven; The Talented Mr. Ripley; True Grit; Rounders; Saving Private Ryan; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations - Best Character: Jason Bourne

Mel Gibson - Braveheart; Lethal Weapon; The Patriot; Payback; We Were Soldiers; Mad Max; Signs; Pocahontas; Hamlet; Gallipoli; 2 Academy Awards, 3 nominations - Best Character: William Wallace

Peter O'Toole - Lawrence of Arabia; Troy; The Lion in Winter; The Stunt Man; How to Steal a Million; Sherlock Holmes and the Sign of Four; Caligula; Man of La Mancha; Goodby Mr. Chips; Kidnapped; 8 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: TE Lawrence

Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove; The Pink Panther; The Ladykillers; Lolita; The Mouse That Roared; 3 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Jacques Clouseau

Philip Seymour-Hoffman - Capote; The Master; Moneyball; Synecdoche, New York; Charlie Wilson's War; Patch Adams; Punch-Drunk Love; Magnolia; Boogie Nights; 1 Academy Award, 4 nominations - Best Character: Truman Capote

Samuel L Jackson - Pulp Fiction; Star Wars: The Phantom Menace; Jackie Brown; Shaft; The Hateful Eight; Snakes on a Plane; Captain America: The First Avenger; Coach Carter; Unbreakable; Jurassic Park; Jungle Fever; Black Snake Moan; Juice; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Jules Winnfield

Tommy Lee Jones - Lincoln; No Country for Old Men; The Fugitive; Men in Black; The Hunted; Rules of Engagement; JFK; Rolling Thunder; Cobb; 1 Academy Award, 4 nominations - Best Character: Agent K

Viggo Mortensen - The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring; Eastern Promises; Green Book; Appaloosa; GI Jane; Carlito's Way; Crimson Tide; Hidalgo; 3 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Aragorn son of Arathorn, and Elessar the Elfstone, Dunadan. Heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor.

Dick Van Dyke - Marry Poppins; Chitty Chitty Bang Bang; Lt. Robinson Crusoe, USN; Dick Tracy; Curious George; Best Character: Bert

Tier 3 appearing on 4 lists "The All-Timers"

Denzel Washington - Training Day, Remember the Titans, The Book of Eli, Fences, Inside Man, American Gangster, Glory, Deja Vu, The Taking of Pelham 123, He Got Game, The Pelican Brief; 2 Academy Awards, 9 nominations - Best Character: Alonzo

To protect the sheep you gotta catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf.                    -Alonzo, Training Day

Anthony Hopkins - The Silence of the Lambs, Hitchcock, The Rite, Fracture, All the King's Men, Amistad, Nixon, Chaplin, Shadowlands, The Good Father, The Elephant Man, The World's Fastest Indian; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations - Best Character: Hannibal Lecter

Well, Clarice - have the lambs stopped screaming?                                                                       -Hannibal, The Silence of the Lambs

Gregory Peck - To Kill a Mockingbird, Roman Holiday, Cape Fear, MacArthur, Arabesque, The Big Country, Moby Dick, Captain Horatio Hornblower RN, The Gunfighter, Duel in the Sun; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations - Best Character: Atticus Finch

You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.                                                                -Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird

Humphrey Bogart  - Casablanca, The African Queen, The Maltese Falcon, We're No Angels, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Key Largo, Dark Passage, The Big Sleep, Invisible Stripes, San Quentin, The Great O'Malley; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations - Best Character: Rick Blaine

Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine.
       -Rick Blaine, Casablanca

John Wayne - True Grit, Stagecoach, The Alamo, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Shootist, Rio Lobo, The Green Berets, El Dorado, McLintock!, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Comancheros, Rio Bravo, The Conqueror, Hondo, Rio Grande, Dakota, The Longest Day, Texas Terror, Baby Face; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations - Best Character: Rooster Cogburn

Backward. I always go backward when I'm backin' away.
       -Rooster Cogburn, True Grit

Kirk Douglas - Spartacus, The Vikings, Ace in the Hole, Lust for Life, The Man from Snowy River, The Brotherhood, Catch Me a Spy, The Hook, Paths of Glory, The Racers, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, The Big Sky, The Walls of Jericho; 3 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Spartacus

When a free man dies, he loses the pleasure of life. A slave loses his pain. Death is the only freedom a slave knows.
        -Spartacus, Spartacus

Laurence Olivier - Spartacus, Sleuth, Hamlet, Clash of the Titans, A Bridge Too Far, The Shoes of the Fisherman, Othello, Richard III, Battle of Britain, Henry V, That Hamilton Woman, Fire Over England, Westward Passage, Wuthering Heights, Adventure for Two; 1 Academy Award, 11 nominations - Best Character: Hamlet

Frailty, thy name is woman.
         -Hamlet, Hamlet

Michael Caine  - The Prestige, The Dark Knight, The Quiet American, Youth, Now You See Me, Inception, Children of Men, Secondhand Lions, Get Carter, The Island, A Bridge Too Far, Kidnapped, Gambit, Alfie, The Italian Job, Battle of Britain, The Man Who Would Be King; 2 Academy Awards, 6 nominations - Best Character: Alfred Pennyworth

Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn                        -Alfred Pennyworth, The Dark Knight

Morgan Freeman - Driving Miss Daisy, Invictus, Million Dollar Baby, Glory, Se7en, The Lego Movie, The Dark Knight, Evan Almighty, Dreamcatcher, The Shawshank Redemption, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Blade; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations - Best Character: Red Redding

There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone, and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that.                                                                                                                                          -Red Redding, The Shawshank Redemption

Robert De Niro - Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Cape Fear, Goodfellas, Mean Streets, The Irishman, Joker, The Good Shepherd, Shark Tale, Ronin, Sleepers, The Deer Hunter, Casino, Heat, The Untouchables, One Upon a Time in America, The Godfather: Part II, The King of Comedy; 2 Academy Awards, 8 nominations - Best Character: Travis Bickle

Loneliness has followed me my whole life. Everywhere. In bars, in cars, sidewalks, stores, everywhere. There's no escape. I'm God's lonely man...
         -Travis Bickle, Taxi Driver

Robert Redford - All the President's Men, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, The Natural, Spy Game, A Bridge Too Far, The Way We Were, The Sting, The Chase, The Last Castle; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations - Best Character: Roy Hobbs

And then when I walked down the street people would've looked and they would've said there goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was in this game.
       -Roy Hobbs, The Natural

Sean Connery - Dr. No, The Man Who Would Be King, The Untouchables, The Great Train Robbery, Robin and Marian, The Hunt for Red October, Highlander, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, First Knight, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; 1 Academy Award - Best Character: James Bond

The name's Bond, James Bond.
       -James Bond, A View to Kill

Steve McQueen - Bullitt, The Great Escape, The Magnificent Seven, Papillon, The Getaway, The Thomas Crown Affair, The Cincinnati Kid, The Sand Pebbles, Never Call Me a Stranger, The Towering Inferno; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Hilts 'The Cooler King'

I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or from the air, and I plan on doing both before the war is over. 
       -Hilts, The Great Escape

Tom Cruise - Mission: Impossible, Top Gun, Edge of Tomorrow, Rock of Ages, Jerry Maguire, The Last Samurai, Minority Report, Magnolia, Days of Thunder, A Few Good Men, Rain Man, Vanilla Sky, War of the Worlds, Jack Reacher, The Mummy; 3 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Ethan Hunt

Can I ask you something, Kittridge? If you're dealing with a man who has crushed, shot, stabbed, and detonated five members of his own IMF team, how devastated do you think you're gonna make him by hauling Mom and Uncle Donald down to the county courthouse?
      -Ethan Hunt, Mission: Impossible

Tom Hardy - Inception, Mad Max: Fury Road, Locke, The Dark Knight Rises, The Revenant, Legend, Bronson, Lawless, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Child 44, RocknRolla, Dunkirk, Venom; 1 Academy Award nomination - Best Character: Bane

Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!
       -Bane, The Dark Knight Rises

Will Smith - I Am Legend, Bad Boys, Wild Wild West, Men in Black, Concussion, Hancock, I, Robot, Shark Tale, Hitch, Ali, Enemy of the State, Focus, Seven Pounds; 2 Academy Award nominations - Best Character: Agent J

You know what the difference is between you and me? I make this look good.                               -Agent J, Men in Black

Tier 4 appearing on all 5 lists "The Pantheon"

Jimmy Stewart - Vertigo, Harvey, It's a Wonderful Life, Anatomy of a Murder, The Philadelphia Story, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Rear Window, The Greatest Show on Earth, You Gotta Stay Happy, You Can't Take It with You, The Man Who Knew Too Much, The Last Gangster; 1 Academy Award, 5 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Jefferson Smith, Elwood P. Dowd, George Bailey, Macauley Connor

You want the moon? Just say the word and I'll throw a lasso around it and pull it down.                     -George Bailey, It's a Wonderful Life

Brad Pitt - 12 Monkeys, Moneyball, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Fight Club, Se7en, Ocean's Eleven, The Big Short, 12 Years a Slave, Inglourious Basterds, Troy, Snatch, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, World War Z, The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford, Burn After Reading, Ad Astra, Fury; 2 Academy Awards, 7 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Tyler Durden, Billy Beane, Aldo Raine, Rusty Ryan

Warning: If you are reading this then this warning is for you. Every word you read of this useless fine print is another second off your life...are you so impressed with authority that you give respect and credence to all that claim it?
        -Tyler Durden, Fight Club

Cary Grant - Charade, His Girl Friday, Father Goose, An Affair to Remember, North by Northwest, I Was a Male War Bride, The Bishop's Wife, Aresenic and Old Lace, Penny Serenade, Only Angels Have Wings, My Favorite Wife, Gunga Din, Bringing Up Baby, The Eagle and the Hawk, Holiday, The Philadelphia Story, The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer; 2 Academy Award nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Roger Thornhill, Peter Joshua, Nickie Ferrante, CK Dexter Haven

Well, in this highly competitive world, when a man has no profession, there isn't much choice, so I began looking for people who had more money than they needed...                             -Adam Canfield, Charade

 

Charlton Heston - Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments, Planet of the Apes, Julius Caesar, Khartoum, Major Dundee, The Pigeon That Took Rome, The Big Country, The Greatest Story Ever Told, Touch of Evil, El Cid, Lucy Gallant, The President's Lady, The Awakening, Tombstone; 1 Academy Award

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Judah Ben-Hur, Moses, George Taylor, John the Baptist

You may conquer the land; you may slaughter the people. But that is not the end. We will rise again.
          -Judah Ben-Hur, Ben-Hur

Christian Bale - Batman Begins, American Psycho, The Big Short, Vice, American Hustle, Reign of Fire, Equilibrium, Little Women, Shaft, I'm Not There, The Fighter, The Prestige, The Machinist, 3:10 to Yuma, Ford vs. Ferrari, Public Enemies, Terminator Salvation, Empire of the Sun, Newsies; 1 Academy Award, 4 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Bruce Wayne, Patrick Bateman, Alfred Borden, Dicky Eklund

There is an idea of Patrick Bateman; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me...I simply am not there.
          -Patrick Bateman, American Psycho

Clint Eastwood - Dirty Harry, Unforgiven, Kelly's Heroes, Hang 'Em High, Where Eagles Dare, A Fistful of Dollars, Joe Kidd, The Outlaw Josey Wales, For a Few Dollars More, Bronco Billy, The Rookie, Space Cowboys, Gran Torino, The Mule, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, Pale Rider, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, Escape from Alcatraz, High Plains Drifter, Coogan's Bluff; 4 Academy Awards, 7 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Harry Callahan, Joe, The Stranger, Kelly

This is a 44. Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and it could blow your head clean off. Do you feel lucky?
         -Harry Callahan, Magnum Force

Daniel Day-Lewis - Lincoln, The Last of the Mohicans, Gangs of New York, There Will Be Blood, Phantom Thread, My Left Foot, The Boxer, Gandhi, The Ballad of Jack and Rose, Nanou, In the Name of the Father, The Crucible; 3 Academy Awards, 6 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Daniel Plainview, Abraham Lincoln, Bill 'The Butcher' Cutting, Reynolds Woodcock

Did you think your song and dance and your superstition would help you, Eli? I am the Third Revelation! I am who the Lord has chosen!                                                                             -Daniel Plainview, There Will Be Blood

Gary Cooper - Sergeant York, High Noon, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, You're in the Navy Now, Cloak and Dagger, The Cowboy and the Lady, The Plainsman, Design for Living, If I Had a Million, Seven Days Leave, Nevada; 2 Academy Awards, 5 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Will Kane, Alvin C York, Longfellow Deeds, Robert Jordan

People here are funny. They work so hard at living they forget how to live.                                         -Longfellow Deeds, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town

Harrison Ford - The Fugitive, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Witness, Air Force One, 42, Cowboys & Aliens, Patriot Games, Frantic, Blade Runner, American Graffiti, The Mosquito Coast, K-19: The Widowmaker, Ender's Game, Firewall; 1 Academy Award nomination

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Indiana Jones, Han Solo, Richard Kimble, Rick Deckard

Never tell me the odds.
        -Han Solo, Empire Strike Back

Joaquin Phoenix - Gladiator, The Master, Joker, Walk the Line, Her, Signs, I'm Still Here, You Were Never Really Here, 8MM, The Village, The Sisters Brothers; 1 Academy Award, 4 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Arthur Fleck, John R Cash, Commodus, Theodore

Sometimes I think I have felt everything I'm ever gonna feel. And from here on out, I'm not gonna feel anything new. Just lesser versions of what I've already felt.
        -Theodore, Her

Leonardo DiCaprio - The Departed, Inception, Titanic, Django Unchained, The Wolf of Wall Street, The Revenant, The Great Gatsby, Shutter Island, J. Edgar, Gangs of New York, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Blood Diamond, Catch Me If You Can, The Aviator, Romeo + Juliet, What's Eating Gilbert Grape?, The Quick and the Dead, The Man in the Iron Mask; 1 Academy Award, 7 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Rick Dalton, Jordan Belfort, Cobb, Billy

You sit there with a mass murderer. A mass murderer. Your heart rate is jacked, and your hand...steady. That's one thing I learned about myself in prison. My hand does not shake...ever.
        -Billy, The Departed

Russell Crowe - Gladiator, A Beautiful Mind, Les Misérables, Noah, Robin Hood, American Gangster, The Quick and the Dead, L.A. Confidential, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, 3:10 to Yuma, State of Play, Man of Steel, The Nice Guys; 1 Academy Award, 3 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Maximus, John Nash, Ben Wade, Bud White

Brothers, what we do in life... echoes in eternity.
        -Maximus, Gladiator

Tom Hanks - Cast Away, Saving Private Ryan, Forrest Gump, Big, Bridge of Spies, Captain Philips, Toy Story, The Da Vinci Code, The Ladykillers, Philadelphia, The Green Mile, Apollo 13, Sleepless in Seattle, Turner & Hooch, A League of the Their Own, You've Got Mail, The Terminal, The Polar Express, Saving Mr. Banks; 2 Academy Awards, 6 nominations

Mount Rushmore of Characters: Woody, Captain Miller, Forrest Gump, Chuck Noland

My momma always said, "Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."
        -Forrest Gump, Forrest Gump

There it is. Authoritative, conclusive, and immutable. Or not - who'd we miss?

A frank extemporaneous discussion on the nature of knowledge as it pertains to professionalism in Art

My brothers and I occasionally get the itch to match wits on a topic which we are aware we disagree on. In most cases, said discussions are as much about one-upping each other as they are about convincing the other of our position, but iron sharpens iron whether it's in battle or in the blacksmith's tent.

Recently, as an employee of an institution of higher learning, I discovered that the highest attainable degree in the field of Art general is a Masters Degree of Fine Arts. No Doctorate currently exists in this field. So, I made a proposition as you will read below and a no holds barred, claws out debate began...

*minor editing and grammatically correction but no editorializing

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Lance: 

Also, fairly random tidbit, but I found it philosophically curious. The highest possible credential some[one] in the Art field can attain is a Master of Fine Arts with an Art focus (and apparently this is a devastatingly difficult degree). I believe this is due to the fact that Art is purely subjective, that is there is no objective standard by which to measure someone's expertise in making Art. The other Fine Arts (music, drama, literature) have object measurements and systems by which to determine someone's level of attainment, and therefore Doctorates can be earned.

Clint:

Huh interesting

Shane:

False, art is not subjective

Clint:
[Micheal eating popcorn gif] 

Lance:

What then would be the objective standard by which it would be measured?

Clint:
Shane, if you could end this smug retort with something hardcore that'd be nice.

Shane:

Answer: God. Get your head out of your butt, it's not a hat.

Lance:

Nice, I’m sure Academia can measure someone’s artistic skill by the Supreme Being of the Universe who chose to not provide any template or evidence of what “good” Art is (and don’t say Nature, you Platonist) and is in fact self-admittedly invisible and has been seen by no man. Therefore, how does someone who has never been seen and has never directly provided examples serve as an objective standard for Art?

Shane:

There are 3 general possibilities for how a person might come to know anything. 1) intuition - we just know it 2) empiricism - we've experienced it to be true 3) rationalism - we can deduce it's truthfulness. 

So the question at hand has to be filtered through the framework of knowledge itself. Do we know beauty because we somehow intuitively recognize it? Because we've experienced phenomena which we have come to describe as beautiful? Or do we have a pre-existing understanding of the category of beauty intrinsically and deduce phenomena as beauty as we experience it? 

1) if A, then beauty is subjective or it's objective depending what one decides to know to be true. In which case no conclusion is reached because one has no grounds to dismiss or accept any phenomena as beautiful. 

2) if B, then Beauty is subjective but so is all data entirely. In fact, if we come to know things only by experiencing them in the world then we can never really know anything at all because the potential for falsifying information always exists. 

3) if C, then beauty as an absolute must exist, and be revealed to individuals. Then it would be objective and dependent on the source of beauty for expression in the world. 

Historically Calvinists have believed that category 3 best describes reality. Beauty (and all things of any worth or value) are sourced in God. Therefore because the source of beauty, truth or goodness is God, then It exists eternally and objectively. But whether it is objective or not is pointless if one can not experience it or does not have the faculties to recognize it. However the imago Dei, historically, has been recognized as man's divinely ordained means of experiencing what is True, Good and Beautiful in the world. On these grounds, beauty is objective. It exists regardless of human experience and it's source is God's nature, the prime reality. 

Take that for data!

Clint:

So using that framework can you honestly tell me which is the better song? “Let it Be” by the Beatles or “Twerk it like Miley” by Brandon Beal?

Shane:

Plato has a passage on this very question but I don't think you'd have the stomach for the answer.

Lance:

Counterpoint: Both B and C can exist simultaneously, due to the fact the imago Dei has been shrouded by the fall. True Beauty (capital ”B”) exists in the person and mind of God. Those who he chooses to reveal it to have the experiential knowledge of it and therefore “know” Beauty. However, in the fallen and non-illumined state, there is only experience and no inspiration. So as you say, nothing can be known for sure apart from a source of authority, I would think that honest Calvinists would realize to allow for fallen man to appreciate Beauty in the proper sense would be akin to a Dead Man tasting a meal. 

Game, Set, Match

Shane:

Both B and C cannot exist simultaneously as they are two mutually exclusive ways of describing reality. Obviously, we all experience things every day and we all make deductions, that's why these ideas have resonated with people for a millennia but the question is "how do we know" so 1) does our experience of what we come to describe as beautiful lead us to conceive of a category which we call beautiful? Or 2) do we have a pre-existing category for beautiful in our minds that allows us to recognize beauty when we experience it in the world? 

Certainly, the fall has marred our deductive abilities and our ability to recognize God in the world. But the question is not, can man fully experience beauty, the question is, is beauty objective? Does beauty exist eternally, timelessly and regardless of one's personal opinion? The answer, of course, is yes, it is objective because we only recognize beauty in as much as the imago Dei in us redeems our experience of beauty in the world. We only recognize beauty in the world because beauty and all good things, are sourced directly in God's nature, and God's nature is by definition objective.

Furthermore, you basically admit this in your response, you said in a fallen world "it's only experience, no inspiration" you're essentially saying that since man is sinful and marred by wickedness that we cannot know anything unless it is revealed by God. This is certainly true, but just because all of our knowledge is dependent on God does not mean our knowledge is not real. As a corollary, all human life is dependent on God. As a core level, we believe that God is holding all things together. Does that mean human existence is not "real" because it is not independent? No, it's reality is actually supported by its dependence on God. Furthermore, direct special revelation is not the only way God has chosen to reveal knowledge to humanity. The Imago Dei and plays a key role in our knowing. There is a reason that there are only 6 sentence types in all the languages of the world, that even a cannibal wouldn't eat its mother, and that Asians love sunrises too. All men have a knowledge of God that they suppress.

Lance:

Ah, but does similarity necessitate objective standard or merely proximity? The world is not so big and not so old as to suggest that 6 language types speak to a "form" of language. It merely is a result of a single source and our current framework by which we understand communication and particularly in the field of linguistics, patterned aural communication. There are sciences of "language" which don't fit your 6 categories, Cymantics for one, animal communications for another. In these and other cases, our relative framework by which we describe "language" and more topically to this debate "communication" is a collection of observations continually adapting to the next stimulus. There are wave particles being received by our long-range satellites that don't match any before observed phenomenon, due to their patterns they fit into some of the accepted definitions of language, so some hypothesize it is a communication from a distant source. As such our understanding of language will need to change in order to accept this new phenomenon. Does this mean our current understanding of language is incorrect or correct? Art is a language, or poignantly described as, the language without words, and therefore is dependent on the same relatively established rubric of its proximal authority. Platonism only worked when everyone anybody knew existed was a white, Greek-speaking, toga-wearing, Hellenist living in the Peloponnesian peninsula. I'm gonna need a source on the cannibals because I'm pretty sure they eat their mothers, in fact, Mark Ritchie records such events in his sociology of the Yammamoa people "Spirit of the Rainforest." (how ya like them apples?) 

So, to circle back to the original proposition. To bestow a doctorate in a field in the current academic system, it must be established that the individual has a mastery of a particular objective standard. Art History is a possibly attained doctorate, as is Art Restoration, Art Education, even particular defined forms of Art such as Cubism or Expressionism. However, Art general has no defined objective standard, tomorrow something never seen before will be Art for no reason beyond us as a society agree it is.

Shane:

I would merely point out that if what you attempt to assert in your first paragraph is true, then metaphysical knowledge is by definition impossible and therefore all "knowledge" is merely speculation. But I don't need to prove that because Derrida already did. 

The beauty of your position, of course, is that all one has to do who is not defending a framework but rather trying to poke holes in everyone else's is to find one seeming contradiction because the burden of proof lies with me. However even if I can't defend every assertion I make, it doesn't mean your framework is more plausible and in fact, if your framework leads to existential impossibilities logically then it is self-defeating. For instance, the claim that knowledge is merely observation over time, which defeats itself because in the very definition it denies the possibility of knowledge. 

That being said, communication and language theory are not 1 for 1 corollaries. Furthermore, the fact that we can recognize something as "language" and not "desk" or "cause and effect" and not "cup" means that metaphysical categories exist which we can recognize universally. The only way to explain this I a supreme being, and I happen to have a candidate who would fit that role rather well.

So for a doctorate in Art, we are recognizing that a person had mastered the tradition, history, philosophy, technical ability, etc which has historically captured what resonates most deeply in humanity in terms of art.

Lance:

And there is no Doctorate of Art so your last paragraph is a hypothetical.

Shane:
Ya, but there's no doctorate in dumbuttery but you manage to get it, so my point stands.
[ba dum tssh gif] 


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Additional reading on the topic of the Master of Fine Arts vs a Doctor of Philosophy can be found here.

So, what do you think?