Had the following conversation with my brother via Facebook a few months ago, after re-reading it I thought maybe other people might glean some value from it. I have made comments after posting, they are in red. All grammatical errors are original.
Clint Saxon - what a stud
At your own leisure feel free to answer these questions as lengthily or diminutively as you would like on this thread. 1. Is nonlyrical music moral or amoral? 2. How and in what ways does music communicate with the emotions (or affections) and how does this tie in with its morality or lack thereof? 3. Do you believe in both cultural and intrinsic associations in reference to music? 4. Do you allow the reputation of an artists lifestyle to determine whether you should or should not listen to that particualr artists music regularly?
Alright, lets define terms first:
Music - anything that is called music by anybody, this includes bands like "STOMP" who just bang stuff together and the composer (Cage, I think) who had 2:36 of silence in the middle of one of his pieces. Definitely Cage, the actual song is here and its 4:33.
Moral/Amoral - God has announced a good and bad side to it. Such as sex is bad unless its between man & woman, for life, once married.
Communicate - exchange of ideas, communication can take place one-way because I can scream into the air and still be saying something.
Emotions/Affections - Ways to experience the world outside of our senses. Such as "that smells funny" is senses, "that makes me mad" is emotions. Sense and emotions often coincide but not always.
Culture - composite of all the rules, expectations, experiences, decisions, traditions and goals of any size group of people. Includes oneself.
Association - "Reaction to" dictated by "previous experience with"
Ok? Let me know if those jive, and if so, I'll address #1
Music - anything that is called music by anybody, this includes bands like "STOMP" who just bang stuff together and the composer (Cage, I think) who had 2:36 of silence in the middle of one of his pieces. Definitely Cage, the actual song is here and its 4:33.
Moral/Amoral - God has announced a good and bad side to it. Such as sex is bad unless its between man & woman, for life, once married.
Communicate - exchange of ideas, communication can take place one-way because I can scream into the air and still be saying something.
Emotions/Affections - Ways to experience the world outside of our senses. Such as "that smells funny" is senses, "that makes me mad" is emotions. Sense and emotions often coincide but not always.
Culture - composite of all the rules, expectations, experiences, decisions, traditions and goals of any size group of people. Includes oneself.
Association - "Reaction to" dictated by "previous experience with"
Ok? Let me know if those jive, and if so, I'll address #1
Those definitions seem satisfactory. I will ask some questions about your definition of music later in person and Perhaps take one slightly lengthier jab at explaining "moral/amoral", then proceed with #1.
Moral/Amoral : Morality is defined as "position relative to a standard" that is "up to God's standard" God has drawn lines in the sand in specific areas (I mentioned sex) those have morality. Life is another one. "Do not kill" is pretty clear. Killing is immoral, that is it goes against God's standard. See my posts on Just War to see a caveat here.
Amorality is something which does not have an expressed Divine standard applied to it such as colors. God did not say, "Do not purple" so "purple" is not moral. *in and of itself* there are situations in which something amoral can have morality attached to it. Such as, chewing bubblegum is perfectly amoral unless the administration of the educational institution that you are enrolled at and have agreed to obey says not to do it. Even then, the bubblegum is not immoral, the chewing of the bubblegum is.
Savvy?
Amorality is something which does not have an expressed Divine standard applied to it such as colors. God did not say, "Do not purple" so "purple" is not moral. *in and of itself* there are situations in which something amoral can have morality attached to it. Such as, chewing bubblegum is perfectly amoral unless the administration of the educational institution that you are enrolled at and have agreed to obey says not to do it. Even then, the bubblegum is not immoral, the chewing of the bubblegum is.
Savvy?
1. Is nonlyrical music moral or amoral?
This follows immediately from the previous discussion. It is amoral.
Sound only takes on morality when it aligns to a revealed Divine standard. Find me the passage in Scripture when God says "Do not A major scale" or "Do not 3rd beat syncopate" or "Do not French Horn" it ain't there. Situations where sound/music would be considered moral would be when an authority which derives its position relative to you from God says not to do it. Because God has not declared any music "immoral" in fact, He repeatedly declares "making music" to be more than just moral --- useful. It is possible to wrap morality into associations. I HATE this concept, I believe associations are self-inflicted and therefore should not have moral power over us. But that's #3 so I'll go more there later.
To sum up. An instrument being played is only has ouch, take out the is morality if someone is listening and then it is usually moral or amoral unless there is a stated guideline against it and I argue God sets no guideline against musical style/sound so it would be up to the God-ordained authorities.
You should listen to this - its freaking cool. Modern classical instrumental piece.
This follows immediately from the previous discussion. It is amoral.
Sound only takes on morality when it aligns to a revealed Divine standard. Find me the passage in Scripture when God says "Do not A major scale" or "Do not 3rd beat syncopate" or "Do not French Horn" it ain't there. Situations where sound/music would be considered moral would be when an authority which derives its position relative to you from God says not to do it. Because God has not declared any music "immoral" in fact, He repeatedly declares "making music" to be more than just moral --- useful. It is possible to wrap morality into associations. I HATE this concept, I believe associations are self-inflicted and therefore should not have moral power over us. But that's #3 so I'll go more there later.
To sum up. An instrument being played is only has ouch, take out the is morality if someone is listening and then it is usually moral or amoral unless there is a stated guideline against it and I argue God sets no guideline against musical style/sound so it would be up to the God-ordained authorities.
You should listen to this - its freaking cool. Modern classical instrumental piece.
Lance Saxon
Let me know what you think and then I'll hit up #2
P.S. I state everything as though I'm an expert...that's just easier than saying "I think" and "from what I can tell" every other sentence. I know these are mostly just my opinions. BUT THEY'RE TOTALLY RIGHT!
P.S. I state everything as though I'm an expert...that's just easier than saying "I think" and "from what I can tell" every other sentence. I know these are mostly just my opinions. BUT THEY'RE TOTALLY RIGHT!
I naturally have plenty of questions but you will possibly answer them when you address the other questions. So for now, yes that is satisfactory.
Lance Saxon
2. How and in what ways does music communicate with the emotions (or affections) and how does this tie in with its morality or lack thereof?
This is relativity. Books and books and books have been written on the effect of music on the emotions in various cultures. I have a book on the effect of music on a tribal group in north-western Africa. The same music many preachers call "demonic" is their national anthem. Bit of a difference in "effect" or affect there. There is a position, proscribed to by [named removed to protect the guilty] among others, that suggests our emotional response (that is western euro-christian) is the "correct" response because our culture has been protected by the church and Christendom. I call this Euro-Centrism and denounce it. It is highly arrogant to suggest God preserved His one and true culture through Western European peoples, especially when the Medieval period is also referred to as the "Dark Ages" and that while high and mighty Europeans were crawling around in poop Muslims were inventing math. look it up, its true So, to your question. It depends on the person. Fast, loud music, excites me. I get a mini buzz of energy, depending on the events of the day, and often a small burst of endorphins (can ease a headache for instance). Mom's response, which I hold is completely due to her cultural feelings, is one of panic, disgust and overwhelming dislike. kinda funny sometimes This is an emotional response. In neither case is morality in play. Only when the emotional response results in actions/thoughts which are contrary to God's stated Will can morality be considered. Such as murdering someone while pumping "Helter Skelter" like Charles Manson. But of course, the immoral action is not listening to "Helter Skelter" its killing people. The association is the next question.
Any specific concerns or questions? Then I'll move on.
This is relativity. Books and books and books have been written on the effect of music on the emotions in various cultures. I have a book on the effect of music on a tribal group in north-western Africa. The same music many preachers call "demonic" is their national anthem. Bit of a difference in "effect" or affect there. There is a position, proscribed to by [named removed to protect the guilty] among others, that suggests our emotional response (that is western euro-christian) is the "correct" response because our culture has been protected by the church and Christendom. I call this Euro-Centrism and denounce it. It is highly arrogant to suggest God preserved His one and true culture through Western European peoples, especially when the Medieval period is also referred to as the "Dark Ages" and that while high and mighty Europeans were crawling around in poop Muslims were inventing math. look it up, its true So, to your question. It depends on the person. Fast, loud music, excites me. I get a mini buzz of energy, depending on the events of the day, and often a small burst of endorphins (can ease a headache for instance). Mom's response, which I hold is completely due to her cultural feelings, is one of panic, disgust and overwhelming dislike. kinda funny sometimes This is an emotional response. In neither case is morality in play. Only when the emotional response results in actions/thoughts which are contrary to God's stated Will can morality be considered. Such as murdering someone while pumping "Helter Skelter" like Charles Manson. But of course, the immoral action is not listening to "Helter Skelter" its killing people. The association is the next question.
Any specific concerns or questions? Then I'll move on.
Clint Saxon
Once again I have plenty of questions, but they shall wait. Go ahead and continue with the knowledge that in the future I shall return to these old posts and reread them and quote them. A man of many words
Lance Saxon
3. Do you believe in both cultural and intrinsic associations in reference to music?
Cultural - Yes. But I don't think they apply to morality. Association is the way we're built to understand things. Nothing has any value apart from association unless it is absolute, and I hold God is the only absolute. Therefore, everything else is associative. Therefore, everything else is relative because I may have different experiences/responses which derive different associations. Therefore, see questions 1 & 2 regarding morality. Therefore, my favorite word
Intrinsic - association and intrinsic cannot be connected. That is, an association is dependent on the listener - it is how "I" respond. Intrinsic values are those independent of anything. Very few things are truly "intrinsic" in the universe. For instance, my "maleness" is intrinsic. That is, I have it regardless of my actions or feelings (the my primary argument against pre-programmed gayness) because I have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome while women have two X's. If they eventually figure out "gene-tranfers" then we'll have to revisit this. In the meantime, no matter how girly a guy is, no matter what he has surgically removed or added, he still has intrinsic "maleness" So, the real questions is probably this: "Does music have intrinsic values, and do they pertain to morality?" No. I will revisit tomorrow because I have to get ready to leave work now. its undeniable what your genome says
Cultural - Yes. But I don't think they apply to morality. Association is the way we're built to understand things. Nothing has any value apart from association unless it is absolute, and I hold God is the only absolute. Therefore, everything else is associative. Therefore, everything else is relative because I may have different experiences/responses which derive different associations. Therefore, see questions 1 & 2 regarding morality. Therefore, my favorite word
Intrinsic - association and intrinsic cannot be connected. That is, an association is dependent on the listener - it is how "I" respond. Intrinsic values are those independent of anything. Very few things are truly "intrinsic" in the universe. For instance, my "maleness" is intrinsic. That is, I have it regardless of my actions or feelings (the my primary argument against pre-programmed gayness) because I have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome while women have two X's. If they eventually figure out "gene-tranfers" then we'll have to revisit this. In the meantime, no matter how girly a guy is, no matter what he has surgically removed or added, he still has intrinsic "maleness" So, the real questions is probably this: "Does music have intrinsic values, and do they pertain to morality?" No. I will revisit tomorrow because I have to get ready to leave work now. its undeniable what your genome says
Lance Saxon
In order to describe music as having intrinsic values/factors you must break music into describable pieces. Depending on who you read these "pieces" vary from tone to rhythm to pace to tessiture to volume and so on. I describe a song with the following aspects: Intensity, Originality and Excellence. All of these are EXTREMELY subjective and definitely have 0 moral implications. I am planning on addressing my favorite music on my blog and I'll give each song a 1-10 rating on each of those aspects. Feel free to ask me about any particular songs and their I, O or E values. There are some songs that I dislike with high ratings because the final determiner of whether I like a song or not is simply whether or not I like the song. This never happened and probably never will, but hit me up for a list of my favorite musics, its a long long long long long long list
I'll look at the next ? on Monday.
I'll look at the next ? on Monday.
Clint Saxon
Alright this is satisfactory, I believe I know your answer to the last question well. However I will ask you to go ahead and answer it anyway when you get the chance. Wise choice
4. Reputations
You know the answer so I'll be brief. Tchaikovsky was gay. Mozart was a pervert. Beethoven was criminally insane. The Beatles were Hindu pot and acid junkies. Elvis OD'd. Shakespeare was a drunk. Poe was an opium addict. Ben Franklin was a nudist and possibly a member of a secret gay society for reals!. The Apostle Paul stoned Christians. I think you get the point. Nobody is perfect, I am supporting the art not the artist.
You know the answer so I'll be brief. Tchaikovsky was gay. Mozart was a pervert. Beethoven was criminally insane. The Beatles were Hindu pot and acid junkies. Elvis OD'd. Shakespeare was a drunk. Poe was an opium addict. Ben Franklin was a nudist and possibly a member of a secret gay society for reals!. The Apostle Paul stoned Christians. I think you get the point. Nobody is perfect, I am supporting the art not the artist.
Clint Saxon
This last post succeeded in making a point and making me laugh quite a bit at the same time. haha "nudist"
Since that answers all the questions, I will probably address the overall issue in person sometime soon.
We had that conversation and somehow, despite all this wisdom I imparted, we don't quite agree. Oh well, good thing it doesn't matter what you think.
We had that conversation and somehow, despite all this wisdom I imparted, we don't quite agree. Oh well, good thing it doesn't matter what you think.
